A lot of peoples base a lot of their cultural identity on warrior myths- from vikings, to Sikhs, to Polish Hussars, to Maoris, knights, crusaders, Comanches, Apaches, Malays, Roman Legionaries, Greek Hoplites, and so on and so on.

But when you actually think about it, it's really pretty effing horrible. A warrior represents power, but they also represent brutality and the failure of civilisation.

All the above mentioned peoples from which those warriors derive had pretty interesting societies and communities. The warrior stuff about which people are so vocal was only ever the smallest part of their existence and definitely NOT what made them great, not what drove them, defined them or helped them prosper.

I feel that the focus on warrior culture minimises the true heroes from those cultures- the men and women who led them, the farmers, the crafters, the artists, the writers, the singers, the dancers, the builders.


-Maybe it's a fault in the way we typically use narrative to create stories: people focus on tensions, conflict, break downs in society etc and it creates a myth that history is driven by warriors when in reality that's just part of a storytelling convention.

Can you please give you self a slap for asking is something is toxic, please? Asking if things are toxic is toxic… Sorry get so irritated seeing articles with idiotic skews on things. Is wearing black toxic? Is being irish toxic? is scratching your arse with a tent peg toxic? UGH!

A warrior represents power, but they also represent brutality and the failure of civilisation.

That's harsh and inaccurate. A warrior represents one type of power, the failings of society are usually not caused by soldiers, they're the means not the cause. So in that respect making them heroes isa negative thing because it distracts from the real driving forces of EVIL!!!

It's interesting and kinda sad how we know so much about the battles and powerful men of history but have to excavate their dump sites and toilets and graves just to find out what kind of food they ate. Maybe a story about a midival baker would be interesting just because it's rarely in the spotlight

Genejoke wrote:
Can you please give you self a slap for asking is something is toxic, please?

Hahaha! No I think in this case it's very warranted because like a toxic substance it's a myth that poisons, in this case it poisons the wider culture and people's self image.

GenejokeThat's harsh and inaccurate. A warrior represents one type of power, the failings of society are usually not caused by soldiers, they're the means not the cause. So in that respect making them heroes isa negative thing because it distracts from the real driving forces of EVIL!!!

I disagree, I think it's not only accurate but overly generous. We think of them as heroic but in essence they are the very point of an evil blade that does all the damage. Society breaks down and the warrior is the tool that exerts all the chaos and violence.

The means IS the issue.

We really DON'T ever give them the criticism that they deserve.

We look at a few cases with specific war crimes and think of them as the few bad apples, rather than the opposite: seeing the few genuinely good people as the exceptions.

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Also, true heroism is rare, it's not synonymous being a warrior. Nowadays all soldiers who participate in war in any form are lauded as “heroes”. These days we're very positive about all aspects of war.
When I was a little kid here in Australia the attitude was very different- Vietnam was our most recent conflict and it was seen as deeply shameful.
ANZAC day was a day when we remembered and mourned the sacrifice of our soldiers in war (that was mainly limited to our first world war troops though, not all wars as it is now). In particular we mourned the stupid incident of our failed invasion of Gallipoli in Turkey.
Our greatest hero in that conflict was John Simpson, a stretcher bearer, who every day would patrol with his donkey, looking for sick and injured soldiers to bring back to camp. One day he didn't come back- he was killed by machine-gun fire.

I think we have to rethink our attitude to war again and look harshly about people who love it.
- This comes from someone who's studied a lot about all aspects of war and warriors, weapons, battles, going back in history.

lothar wrote:
Maybe a story about a midival baker would be interesting just because it's rarely in the spotlight

I agree!
It really would because unlike the warriors, bakers actually did work that kept their society going and prospering day to day. They really contributed to the life of the mediaeval world.
It's the tailors, the fishers, the miners, the carpenters, candel-makers, etc who kept things going, not the knights and men at arms.
And unlike the fighting jobs, women were equal participants in all those occupations, which we forget.

Nowadays all soldiers who participate in war in any form are lauded as “heroes”.

Yeah, or anyone who works in health or rescue services. It's a mixed bag. To me a hero is not someone just doing their job, on the other hand some jobs come with inherent risks… the problem is the narrative spin. That's true of so many things and none are particularly pleasant. The heroic baker making your bread, he ain't a hero, he's a greedy capitalist making substandard bread and with skanky wheat and over charging you to buy his new sex dungeon. The Bankers? don't get me started on those evil scum. What about the guy in macdonalds who wiped his arse on your burger, you wanna make him a hero too? Oh and vegans trying to save animals and the planet have no interest in either, they just want to control you and remove the joy of your life too. And they don't realise they will damn cows to extinction if they get their way. Vegans are evil incarnate. Real heroes eat meat.

It's all a distraction from the truth, I mostly agree with you I just know it's futile. Oh and I don't want to live in a world where bakers are heroes and everyone runs around wearing loaves of bread and speaks in baking metaphors.

-Maybe it's a fault in the way we typically use narrative to create stories: people focus on tensions, conflict, break downs in society etc and it creates a myth that history is driven by warriors when in reality that's just part of a storytelling convention.

Bingo… probably.


Not to mention no one gets excited hearing tales of valiant baking. That sublime feeling you get when you open the oven at just the right moment..

A warrior ethos has often served to combine disparate peoples into a single ethnic and later national identity to project a combined power. The narrative of battle can create a bond that otherwise wouldn't have existed or serve to make preexisting bonds stronger and more esteemed.
Marathon led to the rise of Athens as the experience of the city's population coming to together and practically single handed stopping a great invasion. Vimy Ridge cemented the national identity of Canada. It went from a bunch of groups living in a wilderness to a valiant nation that was an important part of the British Commonwealth and could do stuff those Brits couldn't.

The myth of the Minute man bound the American colonies together as the simple farmer beat off the highly trained redciats and their German mercenaries. It took nearly a century for the contributions of the steadfast Continental regular to be added to this myth which is still taught in schools so much so that every AWI historical site feels a need to put an emphasis on those steadfast Continental regulars. The myth was largely in evidence during the American Civil War when it was thought ninety day volunteers would fight and end the war before the leaves turned brown. The United States is truly a nation made by war and has constantly remade its mythical image of itself through its warriors. Theres a reason the US Army has that soldiers of yesterday poster they keep trotting out.

The colors of the German flag are from a military uniform and the origin of German national identity was founded on how das Volk came together to fight the French under Napoleon. That nascent identity would be used by German leaders such as Bismarck to make a nation of Bavarian, Brunswicker, Hessian and other state identities. It's similar to what happened to the United States in the American Civil War as the term United States went from a plural to a singular. Before 1865 it was the United States are afterwards it was the US is partly based on that citizen soldier of the Grand Army of the Republic.(which became the name of the very powerful veteran's association)

lothar wrote:
Maybe a story about a midival baker would be interesting just because it's rarely in the spotlight

One of the best novels about the Middle Ages is written about an architect/mason.

The Middle Ages is where record keeping of the life of the average person practically begins. There are several classic studies.

For the ancient world we have the records kept by the suppliers of those conquering armies with the lists of grain and animals requisitioned or sold to the kings. So we know about the food above and beyond site digs. We also have cookbooks from Mesopotamia and Egypt. Though the rubbish heaps supply all kinds of details no records could even for much later periods like the 18th century.

I think it depends on the warrior myth…

Some myths and tales that focus on a single person tend to be truly inspiring and show them as someone who underwent true growth as a person in such way that you respect them and root for them. I mean, the story of Odysseus can be seen in that light. And even in modern fiction, Luke Skywalker (the classic version not the modern one from the new trilogy) is a warrior who embodies a true hero's journey.